In the podcast:

00:36 – Episode Overview and Guest Intro
03:50 – 1 – Who Do You Serve and What it is Specifically That You Do
08:59 – 2 – Who Are You Conveyed on Your About Page
11:50 – 3 – What is Your Proof in Claiming You Are the Best in What Yo Do
12:48 – Social Proof over Testimonials
19:25 – 4 – Make Your Features Clearly
23:19 – 5 – Get Rid of the Jargons
28:16 – 6 – Lenght of Copy
31:28 – 7 – Appeal of the Copy to the Readers



What To Do If Your Website Is Not Generating You Leads in PDF



Episode Overview and Guest Intro

Welcome back to another episode of Teach Traffic. I’m your host, Ilana Wechsler. And today I am interviewing a very special guest, Steven Lewis from a Taleist.Agency and Steven is a copywriter and we’re going to be talking about what to do if you are sending the right kind of traffic your website.

And it’s not converting to leads or sales, a very, very important component. I often say to people that paid traffic and online marketing is as strong as the weakest link, you can send the best traffic in the world.

But if your landing page is, you know, doesn’t have the right copy, or is letting you down in some way, then no amount of good traffic is going to work. And Steven is nodding his head madly, which is fantastic.

So today, we’re going to help, I guess, help you diagnose some of those issues. So if take you sending the right kind of traffic, your search terms on Google Search are spot on.

And you don’t really see any big sort of outliers of you buying the wrong kind of traffic, then it’s time to address perhaps some of the copy on your landing page.

And I am not a copywriting expert, which is why I have brought Steven on today’s show to explore and help us diagnose some of these issues. So Steven, thank you for coming.

Steven Lewis:

Thanks for having me.

Ilana:

You and I go a little way back. And it’s nice to see that both of us are still sticking to our passions and what we love doing. And there is definitely overlap in our Venn diagram of work that we do.

Do you want to kind of before we get started into some of these diagnostic issues that we’re going to cover? Do you want to maybe give us a little bit of a very brief background about who you are and what you do?

Steven Lewis:

Well, Taleist is an agency that I found it there are now four of us. And we specialize in copywriting because writing it’s been what I’ve always been interested in I did. I did get a law degree back in the day I realized very quickly, I didn’t want to be a lawyer.

But realize I did like writing. So you know, like a lot of lawyers I moved into writing which in my case was journalism and from journalism that progressed into copywriting because companies would come and ask you to write for them.

And that is something that I’ve always taken very seriously. And I take very seriously the part of copywriting that is writing to persuade, there is a difference between content writing and copywriting.

And the differences that they both exist along the spectrum of persuading. So for me, it’s been about studying the psychology about studying what makes people do things.

And so along the way, we have really refined ourselves from what probably was a Content Agency about five years ago, into really narrowing down on it’s about response. And if you’re buying traffic, you want a response and that’s what we specialize in doing which is why most of what we do is research.


1 – Who Do You Serve and What it is Specifically That You Do

Ilana:

Awesome. Alrighty, so let’s get to the topic at hand which is the premise of if you are sending good quality traffic to the website. And if you’re a diligent student of TeachTraffic.com, then you would fall into that category.

But we need to have a look at the landing page. So you go through, I believe, a seven-point kind of checklist, which we’re going to talk about in today’s episode to help us kind of try and diagnose issues.

So let’s go through potentially issue number one. What do you look at?

Steven Lewis:

The person who arrives on your landing page does not really know what you do. So in that instance, for instance, you know, one of my favorites is accountants who want to be your business advisor.

If I’m looking for someone to do my tax return or my bit, you know, my GST or otherwise, I’m not looking for a business advisor, I’m looking for the word accountant.

So often on a landing page, people aren’t using the language that their customers would use, or they’re not using language at all.

So you might arrive and there’s a lovely here hero image of some kind, you know, two gray-haired people shaking hands in an airport,

Ilana:

Classic stock image (laughs)

Steven Lewis:

Classic stock image. You’ve got a picture of the Sydney Harbour Bridge. So we all know that you’re in Sydney. All of that is marvelous, but what do you do? And what does that mean for me?

So there’s a lot of assumption for into copywriting would be a really good example. Right?

I think if you polled 10 people, what is a copywriter, you’d probably get 10 different answers that would skirt around the topic.

So if you had a copywriting landing page, you would want to say I write things that make your phone ring or whatever it is, that’s going to get that across.

So if you pause this podcast right now go and look at your own landing pages. Would you see above the fold exactly what you do in plain terms, and why that is meaningful to your customer?

That that is the number one mistake. We see all The time

Ilana:

And I think you make a really important distinction. And it’s that next step of what you do, but that next step of how it helps that next person because the truth is, people just want to know what you can do for them.

They don’t really care about what you do and all you do, they just want to know how that relates to them to the quite selfish when you think about it sort of to be…

Steven Lewis:

And that’s exactly right. I mean, that’s the so I give you an example we three times the conversion rate on a social media marketing agency landing page because their headline was Social Media Marketing Agency.

Nobody gets out of bed in the morning and says, You know what I must do today I must find a Social Media Marketing Agency.

And again, if you ask 10 people what is a Social Media Marketing Agency, I’m certain you would get 12 different answers.

So we changed the headline to something that was along the lines of we help this kind of business get this kind of leads from visa Kind of social networks, right?

I had to fill in the blanks on that it was not quite such a clumsy headline as that, but it was, whatever it is that they do. So, yeah, you probably did get out of bed this morning thinking I need to get more leads.

I wonder if I can do that from social media, you arrive on this landing page and like, okay, that’s what they do. You know, that’s the team and it says on the team, what they do.

Ilana:

And I think it also forces you or the person whose business it is to be actually really clear and specific about who it is you’re helping and how, and the truth is, and you probably find this.

Lots of people don’t really know all they think they help everyone which is totally the wrong answer, you know, so it forces you to get clarity on that. Would you agree?

Steven Lewis:

Well, Peter Drucker, the management consultant, I quoted this all the time. He said most businesses don’t know what they sell because they think they’re selling each the classic copywriting example Pete customers don’t buy drills, they buy the whole they want the drill to make.

And that’s what Peter Drucker is saying there. And a lot of the time, companies don’t think of it they’re very excited about what they do. And they leave it to you the consumer to join the dots.

It would be like IKEA saying to you, we flat-pack furniture. Yeah, great, I don’t care about that I need a bed for my kids, that that’s what I care about.

Yeah, and I want it to be easy and I want it to be inexpensive and I want it to fit in the boot of my car. You know, these are all the things that I want. I don’t care that you flat pack for….

Ilana:

Someone once said to me, you know, a good way to kind of get that information out of your own head and out of yourself is just you know, you say I you know, I flat-pack furniture, furniture, and use insert.

So then what you know, and that sort of forces that out of you. Anyway, we might be jumping ahead on some of our seven-point checklists.

So number one above the fold. Who do you serve and what it is specifically that you do?

What’s number two?


2 – Who Are You Conveyed on Your About Page

Steven Lewis:

Who are you? So you need an About Us page that tells me who you are not that you like when surfing the weekend and you’ve got nine children and unless that’s super relevant, you know if you sell surfboards, your history as a surfer or the fact that you spend your weekend surfing or every morning surfing that is incredibly relevant.

But your About Us page is the one lie you are allowed to tell on your website. And the lie is that the page is going to be about you because an About Us page is not about you.

It is still about your customer. Do you need to think about what does my customer want from me? And who am I to give it to them?

So if they are looking for tax advice, the fact that you’ve been doing for 25 years, that’s a good start. What is it? What is your approach? Why is that relevant to me?

Those are the sort of things I’m looking for another you’re a lovely member of the local community. Sadly that is not relevant.

Ilana:

Do you think though that In this day and age, you know, social media and people sharing, you know, aspects about their lives on that, say, their business page, etc?

Do you think that people kind of does like to know that aspect of somebody?

Steven Lewis:

I think it really depends. And that’s what you need to think about, like if your experiences that you know, if you’re a GP and your experiences that your patients want to know that when you bring in your children.

I’ve got three children of my own, I really understand I’m, you know, I’d never give them antibiotics if I don’t have to.

If that resonates, then that should definitely be included. But if I’m looking for tax advice, I don’t care what you think about yoga. I mean, I really don’t think that’s likely.

Ilana:

Okay, fair enough. I think, you know, one could do a whole podcast episode on just writing the perfect about page.

I mean, that is, I look in many Google Analytics accounts for four people and pretty 9 times out of 10 that is the second most visited page on your website after your homepage, and I want to know, that’s in particular, if you’re selling a service, it’s a window into the shop.

Steven Lewis:

You know, not having an About Us page is a little bit like walking down the high street and every shop having frosted windows and on the front, it says lovely things inside. Yes, but you can’t see through the window.

People are nervous. I mean, I think the thing that people psychologically people forget is your clients like the status quo and they are naturally inert. They are looking for any excuse not to pick up the phone

Ilana:

Totally. Okay, so number two was “Who are you conveyed on your about page?” What’s number three?


3 – What is Your Proof in Claiming You Are the Best in What You Do

Steven Lewis:

Proof. Anything you say must be backed up with a sufficient amount of proof to make the reader competently, you can actually do it.

So, if you’re going to say my favorite example that you are the leading mortgage broker in North Sydney, what is your proof?

I’ve just been to three other websites, they are all apparently the leading or mortgage broker in my area. What is your proof that you are in fact, the Leading person and proof in this?

It’s not scientific proof. It’s not legal proof. It could be proof like social proof. For instance, we have a five star Google rating is proof it’s social proof.

If you are in a minute the use of engineering language will prove that you speak engineering language if there are dozens and dozens of different kinds of proof and the more of them you use, the better it is.


Social Proof over Testimonials

Ilana:

Would you say that testimonials could be sufficient proof?

Steven Lewis:

Testimonials could be sufficient proof the more proof the better.

But social proof is one of the strongest so I mean, if you go back to Cialdini’s influence, you know, there are six psychological shortcuts that humans use to make decisions because we have to make so many decisions every day.

And one of the most powerful is what’s everybody else doing. And the example of that is, you’re walking down the street in a new city you’re looking for somewhere to eat.

You come across two restaurants one has five people in one has 25 people in, you are almost undoubtedly going to go to the one with 25 people in even though there are 25 people may have no taste buds, they may be related to the owner, they may be getting a free meal that you’re not going to get you don’t know.

But you don’t have time to work it out. You’re just gonna look so if you’re going to have testimonials, there’s a level beyond Ilana’s fabulous thumbs up.

You would ideally like the person giving you the testimonial to indicate that they are like, your ideal client so that I see somebody like me Doing something that they experienced a problem like a problem that I have experienced.

And you give their name like the number of times I see people who want to use “Ilana W”, for instance, as the testimonial. Now I understand if the site is of an extremely personal nature that somebody might not want to say Steven Lewis uses this cream for this unsightly rash.

Fair, enough, right. But Steven L uses your accounting services. It’s not very specific, and it, therefore, undermines the nature of the proof.

So even with testimonials, don’t just take them as they are. Try to get your clients to shape the testimonial to prove what you want to prove. Hmm.

Ilana:

What about in industries where you’ve got to be really careful about, you know, proofing Google reviews, like for example, dentistry.

I used to do a lot of Google ads for dentists and that is an industry which has lots and lots of regulation around like you can’t have any reviews on the website, etc.

How do you if you’re a dentist, how do you demonstrate proof?

Steven Lewis:

But dentists are a fantastic example of a number of things because we’ve done a lot of work for dentists and one of the things I most love about dentists is and this is relevant.

This is a bonus eighth consideration is are you talking about what I actually want to talk about?

So all dentists want to tell you that their pain-free, right? You can’t tell me your pain-free without using the word pain. No dentist would tell me they were painful. So it’s kind of meaningless.

Anyway, every dentist is going to try and be pain-free. Don’t plant the idea of pain.

Our research has shown that the number one thing that dental patients care about is will the dentist and their team the friendly. That’s what people want to know. Particularly if they’re scared of getting hurt.

They want to know that your care. So you should be thinking about what needs to be proven. You think about what people need.

Know, the proof element in terms of social proof is not there. But how long have you been in business? What are your qualifications?

I mean, we improve the conversion rate for an implant specialist by an enormous amount. I mean, we at least doubled it partly by talking about the fact that this specialist trains other specialists.

Now, what is a better form of proof? We’ve just used that for a surgeon in LA, who trains other surgeons, whoo hoo, you want to go to the surgeon who was trained or the surgeon who did the training, you know, do you want Yoda or the G or the trainee Jedi? Right?

Yeah. So you know, that kind of proof is really strong.

Ilana:

Yeah. And where do you feel you put this proof? Is it on? You know, is it above the fold? Like, you know, point number one, or is it on the About page?

I think in Australia, like, and this is sort of a very Australian thing, not so much a US or you know Like we have tall poppy syndrome where you know, you can’t kind of shout from the rooftops how fantastic you are.

It’s, you know, Australians don’t like that. So how do you I guess elegantly and where do you embed this proof that sits well with people?

Steven Lewis:

To every transaction there are a huge series of objections ranging from the usual and massive it’s too expensive to the absolutely tiny are you’re only open on Tuesdays and I don’t like leaving the house on a Tuesday.

What you need to do when putting together a landing page is to address the objections in order.

So for instance, we did a landing page for some doctors who treat a condition that many sufferers don’t believe is curable.

So you could lead on that landing page with the fact that the solution is affordable. But if I don’t believe there’s a solution in the first place, it doesn’t mean matter if it’s $2, I’m not going to get off the sofa because I think you’re selling snake oil.

So you need claim and proof claim and proof in the order in which they need to be knocked down. So in their case, we increase the conversion rate on that landing page by 430% by God by saying to ourselves, what is the first thing people need to believe they need to believe you’ve got a cure.

So we said that in the headline, that was the headline, then we proved it. Then people are saying to themselves, okay, well, well, there’s a cure, but can you deliver it?

So then we prove that our guys can deliver the cure. Now I might start to wonder about oh, well do I want this cure or the other any side effects like there’s cures and cures, so then we address that and so on and so on.

So unique claim and proof alongside the claim. So if it’s something really simple, if you’re selling burgers, then it’s probably enough to have a nice photo.

The burger that’s proof, your address and the fact that you’ve got five star reviews on Google for your mouth watering, but that’s probably enough.

If you are suggesting that people might want their chest cavity cut open by you, then you probably need a little bit more in the way of objection claim proof and so on.

But with the way your proof goes, depends on where your claims need to go.


4 – State Your Features Clearly

Ilana:

Yeah, right. Interesting. Alrighty, so number three is proof. Number four is…

Steven Lewis:

Benefits. Don’t rely on people to understand or connect your feature to your benefit.

Yeah, so nobody buys a refrigerator because they woke up in the morning and said I’d like a box that’s cold inside. That is the feature of the refrigerator.

It is a box that is cold inside the benefit he drinks will be cold and summer the food will last longer. Don’t forget the benefits that people won’t admit to liking, like your neighbors will be green with envy because your ice maker doesn’t Margarita out the front of your fridge.

That is an element, right? You know that nobody buys a Mercedes, because it holds the road better on the way to Willie’s than a master. Right?

That is not why you buy a Mercedes. So you also want to be hinting at the benefit. So, you know, a vivid example of that would be certainly the old style beer commercial.

That implied to you that if you just drank that particular type of beer, then that particular type of lady would do that particular type of thing with you.

Nonsense, obviously, but very strongly implied and very strongly speaking to a benefit that the target audience wanted. So don’t just list it does this it does this it does this it does this what does that mean to you?

And to go to your earlier, but you know, point keep asking yourself so what? You know It’s in a bottle.

So what? Well, it’s got a squirty thing on the top. Okay, so it’s handy, you can carry it around. Okay, so what so what so what so what, and eventually you will get down to what somebody will actually….

There’s a fabulous example of a 1950s ad for a soap. And the benefit promised is that you will look beautiful so your husband won’t stray with other women. Now, that’s repugnant.

And because it’s so repugnant in today, you can see clearly what they were doing. Whereas if you go back and deconstruct a good landing page today, you may not notice how subtly they’re weaving in the benefits.

But when they tell you, your husband won’t cheat on you because you’re using the right so it’s pretty vivid what they’re saying, but they don’t just say it’ll make you clean comes in a handy bar shape. It’s the benefit.

Ilana:

Do you think it’s even worth mentioning the features as well

Steven Lewis:

You’re definitely going to mention the feature because the benefit attaches to the feature.

And you will have I mean, there’s debate about this that it’s, you know, Cornerman won a Nobel Prize for proving that people make decisions emotionally, not logically, but you will still find people arguing that logic plays apart.

Logic is best treated as what people use to justify the decision they have emotionally made. I wanted these things because of these benefits, but I did it because it was cheaper last last longer.

You know, like if you are somebody who buys a red sports car, why they bought a red sports car for $300,000 they’re not going to tell you because I feel potent in it.

You know, that is not the answer they’re ever going to give you they’re going to tell you because it goes nought to 60. And when you say to them, but you can never drive it at the speed at which it goes legally.

They won’t have an answer for that but they’ll list off the features for You, we all know what the benefit is, right? So that’s what you need to be.

That’s what you need to be talking to the people but have the features there so that they’ve got a, you know, when their partner says to them, why did you just drop you know, $10,000 on this, they can give them a very sensible list of reasons.


5 – Get Rid of the Jargons

Ilana:

Alrighty, so that sounds good. What’s number five?

Steven Lewis:

Get rid of the jargon. every industry has jargon.

You think everybody knows what it means?

I used to work for financial services company and in the end of that frustration. I took a microphone down to circular key and bailed up tourists.

And I read things aloud to them from internal document and asked the tourists to tell me what they thought these things meant.

And one of them was we will engage with subject matter experts in multi geographies what wasn’t what I was expecting was for the person on the street to say to me, yeah, I’ve got no idea.

That’s gibberish, right? The thing that amazed me was, every person we bailed up on the street had a go at telling me what it meant right? Now, for the benefit of anybody who’s still with us.

The working with a subject matter expert across multi geographies, simply means the company had offices in different cities.

And on this internal project, they would work with whoever was necessary regardless of what office they were in. Right. Brilliant. I mean, absolutely phenomenal.

But nobody, nobody who answered the questions on the street got the answer, correct in the sense that they didn’t know actually what the author meant by that. So just get rid of the jargon.

You are aiming for an 11 year olds reading level if you like nobody, I mean One of my favorite words in the entire world Atlanta is learnings. Except it’s not a word, the word you’re looking for is lessons, lessons, not learning lessons.

You don’t say to your children when they come home from school, what were your learnings today?

You say, what did you learn today? If you wouldn’t say it to your 11 year old, don’t write it on your landing page.

It’s not necessary. But that’s quite a hard one for people, because they think they’re terribly clever. And they’re very, very worried about not sounding clever.

Ilana:

The thing with jargon, and I find this especially in the work that I do, where, you know, for a long time I’ve, I’ve run an agency and a lot of other agencies use jargon on their clients to sound like they know what they talking about.

And so to confuse people and sort of use it as a way of like pulling the wool over their eyes a little bit, and, you know, like, so that they use that strategically. And there isn’t Tremendous amount of jargon in the work that I do.

But what people don’t realize is from an is that it can really put people off as well, you know, so, yes as to your point of its subject to misinterpretation.

But beyond that, it sort of makes people think, oh god, how stupid am I? How do I know? How do I know what, you know CPV means or see? How do I not know how to calculate CPA?

Oh my God, that’s terrible. I’m not even going to talk to this person. Because I should know this. If I spend $2,000 a month on ads. How to calculate this and I’m too embarrassed to admit this.

Steven Lewis:

Well, you one of the things that I think people don’t people always think that or they act as if the person who comes to their landing page is the customer.

But we’ve all worked in organizations where somebody higher up and said, Go and find me for people who do this. So you go out and you Find four people and you present them to the boss.

And the boss says, which one do you think is the best of the four? part of the job of your landing page unless you are certain you’re dealing with the end customer is to skill the person who’s reading the page up so that they can say, you are the person that that they recommend and for the following reasons.

And if you’ve used so much impenetrable jargon on your website, that the person really doesn’t even know if you do.

Yeah, I looked at I got a referral recently to somebody so I went to their website to have a look at what they do. I’m not kidding you.

When I say I had to read four pages of their website to work out that they were a software development company four pages. Wow, it’s not the Da Vinci Code. I’m not on an exploration right.

I’m doing it because I’m going to have a call with you. But if my boss had sent me out to find a software development company and I can’t work out on the first Pay the first element government, you don’t meet tick one, let alone Are you the best?

I’m not even sure that’s what you do. how embarrassed am I going to be when I go back to the boss? And I find I’ve actually put a sandwich, you know, a sandwich company in front of them? Yeah, I’m not going to take that risk.

Ilana:

And people are just going to persevere for that long. They’re not going to write full pages. Like, they’re not even going to really scroll.

I mean, we all know, you know, people’s attention span and bounce rates are really high. So you have to be so clear. And talking the language not to confuse people with


6 – Length of Copy

Steven Lewis:

You do have to be clear and I guess you know, art. Long Form copy is not dead. People are very quick to say everything should be, you know, so we work with a lot of web designers and a lot of web designers.

You know, they feel if there’s more copy than you could fit on the label of a wine bottle. There’s too much copy.

The rule of thumb is you need as much copy on your landing page as it would take you to persuade somebody in person to do what you want them to do.

So if I said to somebody, hey, I’ve got the keys to my Lamborghini, do you want to take it for a test drive? Those are probably enough words.

If I said my Lamborghini is outside, would you like to buy it? Those are probably not enough words to convince you but you should be buying my my Lamborghini.

So the examples I gave of the doctors landing pages, you know, each of those is about 4000 words long. They are long pages because they are big decisions to consider.

But there are points in the page where you can jump off if I’ve read enough to be convinced if you’ve got claim proof call to action, claim proof call to action.

I can jump out and take an action as soon as you’ve convinced me but what most people do is they don’t have enough stuff to convince the person who is not yet convinced but would be convinced if you gave him a bit more proof or a bit more reason to cheat see people are very quick to go with a short page these days.

Ilana:

Yeah, I wants to read somewhere and I don’t remember where I should probably try and find it. That good copy that’s written really well is hard not to read.

You know, and I think that’s, I think that’s really true. Like, it’s got to be. So it’s going to draw you in so much that it’s hard to turn away, you know, which is hard to do.

Steven Lewis:

But it’s hard to do is time consuming, but a good rule of thumb is the number one job of your headline is to get you to read the first sentence, right?

Same with an email subject line, the job of your first sentence is to get you to read the second sentence. You know, people get really confused by that, particularly, if you’ve got a slightly old school SEO mentality, which is I’ve got to pack as many keyword phrases into my headline as possible, preferably at the front of the headline, and you’re like, well, that may be great for SEO.

That’s not my area of expertise, but you’re going to see More humans running for the hills who come across that language. So you know, we just did some research with somebody in a in a particular segment.

And what was really clear reading their competitors websites was it was written for SEO.

So as a human, you just felt like you were being talked to by a robot. And it wasn’t building the rapport that you that you needed to build.

So I mean, we could call that tip, whatever we’re at now, that length.

Ilana:

Okay, we’re like Tip number six.


7 – Appeal of the Copy to the Readers

Steven Lewis:

That could be Tip number six, length, length is critically important. And in fact, I think we could make tip number seven. The job of each sentence is to make you read the next sentence that those are if you look at those things on your website, and also I’m going to go for tip number eight and on a bonus tip for people.

If you aren’t going to show your copy to somebody and ask them what you think, particularly if you paid somebody like me to write it. Please for the love of God, would you ask somebody in your target market.

I had a guy who manages investment properties for people. We wrote him a landing page. He said, Look up. I’ve shown it to four or five people, they read the headline, they said, Look, I wouldn’t read on.

I said, Oh, you know, do they own investment properties? He said, No. I said, Well, of course, they wouldn’t read on what? What? Why would they return? They’re not in.

But honestly, the number of times you get feedback, like, my mom didn’t like it. Dave thinks it should be more purple. It doesn’t matter. And that’s the beauty. If you’re paying for traffic, you can do the math, let those people decide.

Ilana:

And that’s the beauty of paying for traffic is you are buying access to exactly your target customer. So there’s the ultimate proof of, you know, is this converting or not?

Like, am I talking to the right customer, they’ve literally just typed into Google insert, whatever you do. So that variable is gone, you don’t have someone who’s just putting it keyboard warrior putting in their two cents worth or something.

Steven Lewis:

I mean, that’s right. I mean, we, we did some writing for a guy who was a former professor of human factors at Monash University world expert in human factors.

Now human factors, Ilana you, you will know already but other people are how people interact with machines. So the human factor in driving is fatigue, you know, those sorts of things.

And he started talking to me about cross modal attention shifting. And I said, Mike, what is cross modal attention shifting?

And he said, Well, you know, when you’re watching the TV and you hear a loud noise, and you look towards the noise, you’ve just crossed modally attention shifted.

So can we talk about distraction instead? Because people will understand that and, and the resistance for him was he was worried about sounding stupid to the other professors of human factors.

Yeah. But they are not your audience. Yeah. You know, if you You’re a lawyer. Your target punter is probably not a lawyer.

So what you write might sound very simplistic to other lawyers, but really attractive to your client who is trying to achieve an outcome. Yeah, you know, that’s, that’s what you need to look at always be going with the data and your target client.

Ilana:

Cool! Well, I think we have this we want to insert a double bonus, Steven I think we’ve certainly covered a lot of really important points.

And I I’m certainly thinking about some landing pages that we’re sending traffic to. Do they satisfy all your really important points.

So thank you for sharing your wisdom today.

Where can people find out more information about you and what you do

Steven Lewis:

There’s more at Taleist.Agency and Taleist, as in telling tales stories, TALEIST. And some of the things that we’ve been talking about today.

And there’s a download on the side at Taleist.Agency/7things. So seven things anyone can do to increase that conversion rate.

You don’t need technical skills in your website. It’s all about the wording.

Ilana:

And it’s the kind of thing that you don’t need any more traffic. If you even if you just leverage your existing traffic you get, you can hopefully get more conversions from what you currently got.

You don’t even need to buy more traffic. That’s awesome.

Thank you so much for taking time out of your day. I know we’re all busy people, and especially coming up to the end of 2019 at the time of this recording, which is pretty crazy. So thank you so much for coming on a show and talk to you soon.

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